Comments on: Why, yes, I AM rubber!

By: sashen

sashen — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:18:41 +0000

I completely agree that socialization is an aid or, maybe, a short-cut to developing a common ground for communication (e.g. the British are much better at debate/argument than Americans, since there are many social, political and educational models, used on regular basis, for that type of conversation). But, it’s certainly not required.

So, when I say “growing up” I’m referring to engaging in a process of critical or analytical reason that is available to any adult who spends the time/effort to attend to it vs. children who (arguably) don’t have the intellectual capacity to do the same.

And, it’s TOTALLY possible to argue about the nature of the argument in the middle OF an argument… because the meta-level points are simple and logical (e.g. “That’s not an answer to my question, that’s just calling me names to avoid actually answering”… which is an ad hominem attack).

But, that said, most people in an argumentative situation would rather stick to their guns than entertain any thought that might derail their point.

In other words, you’ve got to be REALLY skillful to get someone to understand that they’re making a bad argument in the middle of their bad argument

Now, I am NOT claiming to have mastered this by any stretch… and I’m loving a memory where I did a pretty good job:

During a business negotiation, one member of the other party claimed to have spent hours on the telephone on my behalf. I asked him which phone he used (he was at my office). He told me. I looked up the phone records which listed every sent/received call and said, “Are you sure you used my line? Because I’m looking at the phone logs and I don’t see any calls on any of the days you claim to have spent 8 hours on the phone.”

At this point, he went ballistic and started accusing me of all manner of illegal acts and, more importantly, said, “Who do you think you are to accuse me of lying?!”

“Well,” I said, “I don’t have an answer to that question, but you probably know that self-righteous indignation is usually a sign of lying.”

There was a long pause and then he hung up the phone, leaving his other 2 business partners on the line… there was an even longer pause before one of them said, “Ummmm… I guess we’re going to have to do some research and get back to you.” When they did call back, they told me the story of how they fired the liar.

By: peter

peter — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:08:28 +0000

You can’t even begin to argue (I mean, negotiate knowledge, persuade) unless you have enough common ground. That includes a procedure for arguing reasonably. (As a basis, not as a rule-book). Ie, if everything you say actually becomes another thing to argue, you end up throwing up your hands because you can never actually finish the job. So really, argument is for people who mostly agree with each other already, and only have to settle the finer points….whether of content or of procedure, or of agreeing to disagree and exactly how and where they disagree…

So I disagree about ‘growing up’ and see it more as a question of socialization…the process of creating the common ground that helps us make intellectual progress…if we are not socialized similarly (including to value certain forms of argument vs. others) we can’t communicate and least of all negotiate impasses…

By: Stacy

Stacy — Wed, 02 Apr 2008 12:55:05 +0000

Hey! We can start the “Diapers for Iraq” crusade! Send them to both sides!

Love,
Stacy

By: sashen

sashen — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:45:35 +0000

Sending you a case of diapers…

-Steven

By: Nina Amir

Nina Amir — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:03:32 +0000

I actually think many of us (I’m trying to be nice, since I really wanted to say “most of us.”) need to wear diapers in our personal relationships — and, yes, that includes me, too. How often do we let our significant other’s not-so-nice comment bounce off us and boomerang back at them with another not-so-nice comment hoping it will stick? Why just the other day… Well, I’ll spare you the details. Suffice it to say, there have been plenty of times when I’ve walked away from an encounter with my husband, my children, my mother, my siblings, knowing that I definitely didn’t act my age. And I’ve done all that human potential, metaphysical and spiritual stuff. I’ve taken the classes (even taught them myself), gone to the workshops and retreats, been to the conferences, read the books, practiced the meditation techniques, and prayed to the Almighty. I know how to communicate and to resolve conflict in my relationships. And still, in the heat of the moment, all too often I should have had some diapers. And, you know what, I should have had some to give the other person, too! Now there’s a thought: If we each had a box of diapers, each time we got into one of those situations we could throw a diaper at the other person. That would surely stop the immature behavior on the spot and dissolve it into a fit of even more immature giggles! (Better than those nasty words for sure!)